Fighting Big Bads

[doyce]

Also, if Carabas keeps her busy, sting like a bee applies and he might be able to get that crystalline gizmo away from her.

Of course, that counts as trickery, so… options options.

[doyce]

@garrett

So. Hmm. There’s stuff there.

I think it depends on what “defeated” means. If any of the Finish Them outcomes are a “defeat”, then her Honor-Bound stat says none of that will work. If “defeat” just means “physically overwhelmed in combat”, yeah. I’m interpreting it as “Finish Them is a tool for defeat”, but I’m happy to learn I’m wrong here.

Honestly? I just don’t think it’s quite as interesting that way. Options where you guys can use Wisdom and Courage to get her to back off/down and know another showdown is coming sound like cool scenes to me.

CAN you beat her down and take her out? It is possible, but maybe maybe today isn’t that day, because it’s hard to do it from a cold start. Maybe some research. Learning her foibles, or that one thing you can say where she flips out and attacks like Wynn just did, breaking her code of honor.

[doyce]

@garrett

I think it depends on what “defeated” means.

I really feel like the fiction has to inform that.

“What the hell just happened?”

“We left.”

“They defeated you!”

“Don’t be any more ridiculous than you must be, Ekki.”

“They’re still standing!”

“I … would prefer not destroy one of the last remnants of my old life, if mercy is possible. If they have sense, they will walk away from this and never look back.”

“If they… are you… let me TELL you about Rowan Greenhanded and ‘having sense’!”

[fragolakat (James)]

@doyce

Taken Out
When all your stats are damaged and you take further damage, you are Taken Out.

So, while this doesn’t pertain to Siflae herself, one of the traits of the remnant is that they can’t be Taken Out.

Inner Darkness. You cannot be Taken Out. While all your stats are damaged, you lose all your other Agendas, and gain the Agenda Darkness Reigns
Darkness Reigns. Your curse consumes you. Act with vengeance and lash out in despair.
When Darkness Reigns within you, you are easily controlled and cannot disobey an order given to you by a Threat to the World, and the Overlord can make you An Offer You Can’t Refuse.

All this just makes it more interesting for us since I raced forward.

[garrett (Bill Garrett)]

I searched for “defeat” in the PDF. Here’s some excerpts.

• p. 18 - Finish Them: When you attempt to defeat an enemy you hold an Advantage over, tell us what you want to do to them and roll the appropriate stat.
• p. 24 - When you try to defeat them for good, by any means you can think of, roll to Finish Them

So to me, the text is saying “defeating someone without having them Taken Out via stat damage is done by the Finish Them basic move”, so it follows that “if Finish Them succeeds, the enemy is considered defeated”. That’s where my interpretation came from.

[Dave (***Dave Hill)]

@garrett

Letting the cat open his mouth actually makes us start taking more damage.

Hey now!

[Dave (***Dave Hill)]

@doyce

if Carabas keeps her busy, sting like a bee applies and he might be able to get that crystalline gizmo away from her.

Of course, that counts as trickery, so… options options.

Is “Keep Her Busy” explicitly trickery? I’ll need to look more closely, and there are outcomes I can strive for other than “swipe that thing out of her hand” – but I think there are ways to finesse that. Especially since (and I need to keep reminding myself of this), we know about her and her kinks.

(“Shall I try the ‘OMG A BALROG!’ shout and stare over her shoulder? Worked great on that troll last week. Oh, wait, I’ve heard about her. If she thinks I’m tricking her, she will unleash a can of whoop-ass on me. Hmmm …”)

I do think a lot of the above is a question of what “defeat” is. Functionally, finishing someone (whether by showing them the error of their ways or thumping them on the head hard enough) can easily be processed as “defeat” regardless. If we split hairs on words, it feels like it will get sticky and we’ll be endlessly debating this. Just my first gut reaction.

[garrett (Bill Garrett)]

@Dave

If we split hairs on words, it feels like it will get sticky and we’ll be endlessly debating this.

We’re 27 posts in so it’s not just your gut reaction.

[doyce]

I love all you guys.

With that said, here is my personal mental summary of this thread.

Players: there’s literally nothing we can accomplish in this upcoming scene; here is an animated video illustration of how deprotagonizing we expect this to be.

Me: actually, I believe there are legitimate interpretations of the rules as written that, in the narrative presented, give you options.

Players: fairs points, but no.

That, plus the fact that, as Bill pointed out, this thread has wound on pretty long, means I’m probably just going to wait and see what happens on Monday.

Again, I love all you guys!

[doyce]

@Dave

Is “Keep Her Busy” explicitly trickery

, just to clarify, I was talking about the option to steal something from somebody while they’re distracted using sting like a bee during a keep them busy as being in some way shape or form trickery. I mean… It’s… Stealing.

[garrett (Bill Garrett)]

@doyce

here is my personal mental summary of this thread

Let me be clearer about what I’m saying then.

“Players: there’s literally nothing we can accomplish in this upcoming scene”. This is false. There are things we can do. However, it feels like there’s one very uphill component that’s going to complicate the rest of what we want to accomplish.

“Me: actually, I believe there are legitimate interpretations of the rules as written that, in the narrative presented, give you options.” If you change what “defeat” seems to mean from what the text of the book seems to spell out, then yes. To me this is not a problem for you, but a problem with the wording of Honor-Bound, and I wish the game designers had given this more thought.

I’m going to leave this alone and see what happens Monday.

[Dave (***Dave Hill)]

@doyce

Players: there’s literally nothing we can accomplish in this upcoming scene; here is an animated video illustration of how deprotagonizing we expect this to be.

I don’t know that I’m saying that, either. I think there should be some way around the problem, but I expect it’s going to be bloody hell.

That’s not necessarily a bad thing for the story …

… esp. in the context of “The Good Guys Will Eventually Win,” but we’re just trying to figure out how that works.

[Dave (***Dave Hill)]

@doyce

I mean… It’s… Stealing.

Fair enough.

vs.

Mercy … When the Honor-Bound is tricked, deceived, or betrayed by someone in the fellowship, damage this stat.

So, for the record …

1. Seems to work in general for this, depending on how Carabas gets her to chase him. Not sure how it works once we are off scene, but an interesting possibility.

2. Yes, I think that qualifies as trickery. That’s right out.

3. Depending on the method, this could work without damaging Mercy. I suspect Carabas can frame this without being deceitful or betraying. And might be of value.

4. This should also work without damaging Mercy. And might be of value.

So of the four, three options are certainly on the table. Assuming I get my roll and can put up with damage.

I’m not saying Carabas wants to do this. But it’s an option for the fellowship if someone has bright ideas in how to leverage it.

[doyce]

I agree with all the Sting like a Bee reads.

And 2 is still in, technically, if you want to shut mercy off in exchange for getting her shiny.

---

Thanks for the other clarifications. I’ll get clarifications next time - it just seemed like everyone was feeling a little bummed about the situation. We shall see on Monday.

[garrett (Bill Garrett)]

Out of curiosity, I put this question to the hivemind:

r/PBtA - [Fellowship] Finish Them vs. Honor-Bound